The people brushing this off are the same people who advised the Democratic Party that they didn't have to cater to those backward, "bigoted, xenophobic", hard working, family value, "deplorables" who believe in a "sky daddy" and care about having some dignity they don't deserve cause they don't even know how to raise their kids and should let the state do it, people. In their view, if they created an elite class (them) and a welfare class (the rest of us) and got rid of the middle-class, we'd all have no choice but to vote for them to keep our benefits (slavery) However, they ignored and belittled the vast majority of the working people of this nation and someone has given them something to hope for again. At the very least, they recognize they/we exist. That's why I'll be voting Trump/Vance this year. Maybe the Dems will change back, but I highly doubt it. They don't seem to take constructive criticism very well.
I have disliked Trump from the beginning but the new trajectory of the Republican Party has really made me stop and think. The more I read about Vance and more importantly the intellectuals which have influenced him, the more I am intrigued by what is happening. I thought I knew how I would vote( on not vote) but now I am very unsure.
Before you jump on the Trump/Vance Bandwagon you should take a look at the book "Unhumans", which Vance enthusiastically endorses. From an article in the NYTimes by Michele Goldberg: "The word 'fascist' gets thrown around a lot in politics, but it’s hard to find a more apt one for “Unhumans,” which came out last month. The book argues that leftists don’t deserve the status of human beings — that they are, as the title says, unhumans . . they write, 'great men of means” are required to crush this scourge'. The contempt for democracy in “Unhumans” is not subtle. 'Our study of history has brought us to this conclusion: Democracy has never worked to protect innocents from the unhumans,' write Posobiec and Lisec. . . .
One of their book’s heroes is the Spanish dictator Francisco Franco, who overthrew the democratic Second Spanish Republic in the country’s 1930s civil war. The authors call him a “great man of history” and compare him to George Washington. They quote him on what doesn’t work against the unhuman threat: 'We do not believe in government through the voting booth.. .'
Vance provided the first blurb on the “Unhumans” book jacket. “In the past, communists marched in the streets waving red flags. Today, they march through H.R., college campuses and courtrooms to wage lawfare against good, honest people,” he wrote. “Jack Posobiec and Joshua Lisec reveal their plans and show us what to do to fight back.”
Other endorsements come from Tucker Carlson and Donald Trump Jr., a key figure in his father’s presidential campaign. The foreword is by Stephen Bannon, Donald Trump’s former chief strategist."
Trump's government would be a threat to democracy. How can anyone believe otherwise.?
I have never liked Trump who is vulgar, crass, dishonest. However, I do not think he is necessarily more dishonest than many other politicians including Joe Biden. I don't presume to judge a human being's moral value. I don't have that scale to put the soul on like in the old paintings of the Archangel Michael. Is Trump more morally deficient than Joe Biden? than George Bush and Tony Blair who greenlighted the Iraq war that killed hundreds of thousands of people? I don't claim to judge.
I look at policies. Trump's policies are much preferable than those of Biden and the democrats. I strongly objected to the lockdowns, school closures and vaccine mandates during covid. I had two college aged children and it was outrageous that they had to get an untested, not particularly effective vaccine to stay in college. I personally know several young people who had myocarditis after the covid vaccine. .I saw the censorship of scientists who questioned the covid vaccine . I am waiting for an apology from the democrat covid facists, and doubt I will ever get one.
I am terrified the war in Ukraine, which never should have happened. I have yet to hear a coherent vision of how Putin and Russia are defeated? Putin killed in the street like Saddam Hussein, a war criminal? I dont think so. He will escalate, and you would too.
I am not working class but I have many working class friends. They agree with me on the above issues. Everyone says the democratic party has changed, many of my friends ( of all backgrounds) used to be democrats. Now the democrat party seems to be all about pushing a weird transgender ideology on society, sex education for K-8, permanent covid phobia, vaccines galore, suveillance, climate change hysteria, and war. No thank you.
Do I want to vote for Donald Trump? No, but I probably will.
The only thing that stopped a decertification of the 2020 election was Pence’s conscience. JD Vance has said publicly that if he were vice president, he would have followed Trump‘s orders and refused to certify the election. That means in 2029, if Trump refuses to hand over power, there will be nothing to stop him. Talk about Trump ending American Democracy is not rhetorical exaggeration. This is not just an issue of personal distaste. It is about the future of Democracy in America.
It's possible. But it's also possible a democrat would try to hold onto power. But if we have World War 3 due to the neocons who know run the democrat foreign policy, we will have bigger problems.
There is absolutely no reason to believe that anyone else, democrat or republican, would ever attempt to hold onto power the way Trump did. Trump has never acknowledged that he lost in 2020 nor will he promise to relinquish power if elected.
The first time in my life I saw an election really widely questioned was after Trump won, and the media and others kept pushing the Russia election interference story.
The second answer I have to your comment is. Stacey Abrams and Georgia Governor race.
The Russian election interference story was true. The Russians did interfere with that election, and Trump and his campaign knew about it. This makes him and them guilty of obstruction of Justice. Insufficient evidence was found for collusion between Trump and the Russians, but Trump was still guilty of obstruction of justice, as is anyone who knows about a crime and doesn't report it. The only reason that Trump was not impeached for obstruction was that his prosecutors thought they had a better case for collusion with the pressure he put on the Ukraine.
Questioning election results is a healthy part of the democratic process. Using force and fraud to overturn an election is not.
OK, yes, you are right the Russians interfered in the 2016 election as we undoubtedly interfere in their elections, and they have probably interfered in every election. But was it meaningful? Were their facebook posts impactful, did they change results. No way. I never saw the media question an election the way they questioned 2016.
But we are not going to persuade eachother. Different facts. STacey Abrams was pretty darn aggressive in challenging Kemps win in Georgia. I dont agree that Trump used "fraud and force" beyond what Abrams did.
That said, I disapprove of the January 6 capital riot. However, I do not think that " we almost lost our democracy, " as liberals like to say. To Q shaman?
Republicans are, as usual, late to the party. In this case, their own party! The move to the middle class has been apparent for a long time; they just didn't catch on. Once the WEF claimed the loyalty of the global elite, wealthy power brokers all, it became clear who their acolytes were, and they were not conservatives.
They were also busy grooming the next generation of select movers and shakers; they were thinking long term. Some joined as young bucks and then dropped out a they learned more about global ambitions.
Somewhere in there, the Reagan legacy of the people, nurtured by, of all people a billionaire tycoon, Donald Trump, was reborn. Elite policies squeeze and drain the middle class, including its upper edges. Where else can they exercise, fund and practice their theories? The poor won't protest; they're not about to target themselves, so that leaves the always useful middle class.
When the elite ruling class stopped pretending, and the middle woke up to their useful, puppet status, the game was over. It's only been reinforced in the past 10 years, every single day.
Republicans let the left define them as the rich, greedy, capital class and never actually looked at their growing constituency, as the left was increasingly describing itself, not the republican party at all.
The right's values are now triggers for the left: family, faith, freedom, country, strength, respect, individual agency and a nation that allows them to thrive in dignity and purpose.
My how times have changed. Now we need to choose which direction we go. Right or Left? Yup, the right just might have a chance.
Vance has co sponsored bills 5 bills with Dems? Can someone name a Dem that has co sponsored 5 bills with Reps, recently? That sounds rather moderate to me, and a successful attempt at working across the aisle.
Pundits tend to separate Americans by college education, implying one group is more intelligent and sophisticated. Does anyone doubt a high school grad trucker, who begins his own business and molds it into a success over decades, might be more knowledgable, then a gender studies major, a few years out of college, employed by a non profit? The former must produce a service, Americans want and need. The latter's employment depends on the charity of the wealthy, far more than her personal productivity?
The superior earnings of many of the college educated, likely stem far more from public policy, than actual knowledge or usefulness. No one offshored the jobs of investment bankers, lawyers, journalists and nonprofits. Perhaps even more importantly , no one imported tens of millions of migrants with the similar skills, willing to work for far lower wages.
Dem open borders make far more sense, when Americans understand, many Dems see non college educated Americans, as interchangeable with the migrants hiking the Darien Pass or landing in Mexico from Asia or the Middle East. Many Dems view the migrants as superior, because of their assumed work ethic, and their acceptance of poor pay and working conditions.
Hence, Blue Sates and cities see nothing wrong with spending $80K a migrant, annually, while poor minority neighborhoods can't get a response to 911 calls and US vets, sleep on the street. For Dems one group is not more deserving of aid, than the other. Reps feel differently, and that should win them the election.
Well, every single bill Vance co-sponsored with a Democrat was co-sponsored by a Democrat who worked with a Republican. That's just a truth of logic. Vance does deserve some credit for being willing to reach across the aisle. But the reason there aren't more Democrats doing it is there are no other Republicans reaching across the Aisle. For Eight years, Obama tried to reach across the aisle, and the Republicans spit in his hand.
Ruy, you're one of the few libs I can stand. You are most often right. The shift among working class black and Hispanics, as tracked by Richard Baris, is amazing. Trump will EASILY get between 17 and 25% of the black vote and will push 50% of the Hispanic vote with most of that coming from the so-called "working class." (I hate that term, because I work my butt off but am a former academic---it's Marxist jargon). Nevertheless, you are correct that this IS the new GOP and will remain so for a long time. The neocon/Chamber of Commerce types have mostly moved to the other party.
Ruy - you've been preaching this for months, and it seems to have fallen on deaf ears. January 6th and insisting Trump is an existential threat to democracy just aren't top issues for millions of voters.
IMHO, the election will be decided by working class Hispanic voters. The question, or key contradiction, is whether they identify by ethnicity or by class. If the latter, Republicans win.
Of interest, the last time I was in Southern California, the man behind the counter at a convenience store was wearing a shirt that said, "Don't call me Hispanic, I'm Mexican. We have a proud heritage." Only one data point, but... I've also read that "Hispanics" have a higher rate of entrepreneurship than whites do. Also a plus for the GOP.
Since you posted this, Tim Walz has appeared on the scene, and offered a new kind of democratic party that really does what the Republicans are pretending to do. And of course Vance is now showing himself to be a 24 carat loon, who is alienating everyone from cat owners to step parents. Tim Walz is what Vance pretends to be. If the party follows his lead, I think they'll be a lot more successful at this than Vance and Trump.
Pretty much a guest worker program. No criminals. Must have employment/medical insurance lined up. No government assistance (except education). No path to citizenship.
Would have to reform the whole asylum process, the whole thing is a joke right now.
Vance has been incredibly lucky, based on his start. From the Marines forward it has been nothing but positive. He won his Senate seat on the coattails of Governor DeWine. Now as a possible Vice-President, is this it, or just a stepping stone?
What you are describing is a combination of positions that actually did work for a prominent leader in the past. What they are doing is combining social welfare programs with Xenophobia and bigotry. Ordinary socialism and communism is international, but this party advertised themselves as National Socialists. They were quite successful in Germany in the 1930s.
It's hard to see the Republican Party as a pro-labor party, while disrupting hundreds of communities to round up and detail millions of immigrants, many who have been part of those communities for a decade or longer.
Can you see the Republican party as a pro-citizen labor party? This whole pretense that importing millions of uneducated laborers doesn't have a huge negative affect on lower income voters (pay, housing, benefits) is crazy.
Limiting the number of immigrants and securing the border is a very different objective than rounding up and deporting millions of people who have been in the U.S. for years without authorization. Trump supporters are going to be disappointed if they believe he is actually going to follow through on deportation. Republicans could have had a good border deal earlier this year but they wanted to complain about "uneducated laborers" instead.
How about just identifying who is in our country? Illegal immigrants can get identity cards and green cards, but CAN NEVER vote or apply for citizenship. That includes so-called Dreamers. Criminals are not eligible. People who chose not to apply for this program are subject to automatic deportation.
We have to get a handle on who is coming into this country.
Mandatory nationwide identification systems have been implemented in Argentina, Belgium, Colombia, Germany, Italy, Peru, and Spain. While the IDs vary by country, individuals are typically assigned a unique number, which can be used for a broad range of identification purposes. Personal data such as name, birth date, place of birth, gender, eye color, height, current address, photograph, and other information is often linked to this ID. Is that what you are proposing?
The people brushing this off are the same people who advised the Democratic Party that they didn't have to cater to those backward, "bigoted, xenophobic", hard working, family value, "deplorables" who believe in a "sky daddy" and care about having some dignity they don't deserve cause they don't even know how to raise their kids and should let the state do it, people. In their view, if they created an elite class (them) and a welfare class (the rest of us) and got rid of the middle-class, we'd all have no choice but to vote for them to keep our benefits (slavery) However, they ignored and belittled the vast majority of the working people of this nation and someone has given them something to hope for again. At the very least, they recognize they/we exist. That's why I'll be voting Trump/Vance this year. Maybe the Dems will change back, but I highly doubt it. They don't seem to take constructive criticism very well.
I have disliked Trump from the beginning but the new trajectory of the Republican Party has really made me stop and think. The more I read about Vance and more importantly the intellectuals which have influenced him, the more I am intrigued by what is happening. I thought I knew how I would vote( on not vote) but now I am very unsure.
Before you jump on the Trump/Vance Bandwagon you should take a look at the book "Unhumans", which Vance enthusiastically endorses. From an article in the NYTimes by Michele Goldberg: "The word 'fascist' gets thrown around a lot in politics, but it’s hard to find a more apt one for “Unhumans,” which came out last month. The book argues that leftists don’t deserve the status of human beings — that they are, as the title says, unhumans . . they write, 'great men of means” are required to crush this scourge'. The contempt for democracy in “Unhumans” is not subtle. 'Our study of history has brought us to this conclusion: Democracy has never worked to protect innocents from the unhumans,' write Posobiec and Lisec. . . .
One of their book’s heroes is the Spanish dictator Francisco Franco, who overthrew the democratic Second Spanish Republic in the country’s 1930s civil war. The authors call him a “great man of history” and compare him to George Washington. They quote him on what doesn’t work against the unhuman threat: 'We do not believe in government through the voting booth.. .'
Vance provided the first blurb on the “Unhumans” book jacket. “In the past, communists marched in the streets waving red flags. Today, they march through H.R., college campuses and courtrooms to wage lawfare against good, honest people,” he wrote. “Jack Posobiec and Joshua Lisec reveal their plans and show us what to do to fight back.”
Other endorsements come from Tucker Carlson and Donald Trump Jr., a key figure in his father’s presidential campaign. The foreword is by Stephen Bannon, Donald Trump’s former chief strategist."
Trump's government would be a threat to democracy. How can anyone believe otherwise.?
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/08/05/opinion/jd-vance-fascism-unhumans.html
I have never liked Trump who is vulgar, crass, dishonest. However, I do not think he is necessarily more dishonest than many other politicians including Joe Biden. I don't presume to judge a human being's moral value. I don't have that scale to put the soul on like in the old paintings of the Archangel Michael. Is Trump more morally deficient than Joe Biden? than George Bush and Tony Blair who greenlighted the Iraq war that killed hundreds of thousands of people? I don't claim to judge.
I look at policies. Trump's policies are much preferable than those of Biden and the democrats. I strongly objected to the lockdowns, school closures and vaccine mandates during covid. I had two college aged children and it was outrageous that they had to get an untested, not particularly effective vaccine to stay in college. I personally know several young people who had myocarditis after the covid vaccine. .I saw the censorship of scientists who questioned the covid vaccine . I am waiting for an apology from the democrat covid facists, and doubt I will ever get one.
I am terrified the war in Ukraine, which never should have happened. I have yet to hear a coherent vision of how Putin and Russia are defeated? Putin killed in the street like Saddam Hussein, a war criminal? I dont think so. He will escalate, and you would too.
I am not working class but I have many working class friends. They agree with me on the above issues. Everyone says the democratic party has changed, many of my friends ( of all backgrounds) used to be democrats. Now the democrat party seems to be all about pushing a weird transgender ideology on society, sex education for K-8, permanent covid phobia, vaccines galore, suveillance, climate change hysteria, and war. No thank you.
Do I want to vote for Donald Trump? No, but I probably will.
The only thing that stopped a decertification of the 2020 election was Pence’s conscience. JD Vance has said publicly that if he were vice president, he would have followed Trump‘s orders and refused to certify the election. That means in 2029, if Trump refuses to hand over power, there will be nothing to stop him. Talk about Trump ending American Democracy is not rhetorical exaggeration. This is not just an issue of personal distaste. It is about the future of Democracy in America.
It's possible. But it's also possible a democrat would try to hold onto power. But if we have World War 3 due to the neocons who know run the democrat foreign policy, we will have bigger problems.
There is absolutely no reason to believe that anyone else, democrat or republican, would ever attempt to hold onto power the way Trump did. Trump has never acknowledged that he lost in 2020 nor will he promise to relinquish power if elected.
The first time in my life I saw an election really widely questioned was after Trump won, and the media and others kept pushing the Russia election interference story.
The second answer I have to your comment is. Stacey Abrams and Georgia Governor race.
The Russian election interference story was true. The Russians did interfere with that election, and Trump and his campaign knew about it. This makes him and them guilty of obstruction of Justice. Insufficient evidence was found for collusion between Trump and the Russians, but Trump was still guilty of obstruction of justice, as is anyone who knows about a crime and doesn't report it. The only reason that Trump was not impeached for obstruction was that his prosecutors thought they had a better case for collusion with the pressure he put on the Ukraine.
Questioning election results is a healthy part of the democratic process. Using force and fraud to overturn an election is not.
OK, yes, you are right the Russians interfered in the 2016 election as we undoubtedly interfere in their elections, and they have probably interfered in every election. But was it meaningful? Were their facebook posts impactful, did they change results. No way. I never saw the media question an election the way they questioned 2016.
But we are not going to persuade eachother. Different facts. STacey Abrams was pretty darn aggressive in challenging Kemps win in Georgia. I dont agree that Trump used "fraud and force" beyond what Abrams did.
That said, I disapprove of the January 6 capital riot. However, I do not think that " we almost lost our democracy, " as liberals like to say. To Q shaman?
Republicans are, as usual, late to the party. In this case, their own party! The move to the middle class has been apparent for a long time; they just didn't catch on. Once the WEF claimed the loyalty of the global elite, wealthy power brokers all, it became clear who their acolytes were, and they were not conservatives.
They were also busy grooming the next generation of select movers and shakers; they were thinking long term. Some joined as young bucks and then dropped out a they learned more about global ambitions.
Somewhere in there, the Reagan legacy of the people, nurtured by, of all people a billionaire tycoon, Donald Trump, was reborn. Elite policies squeeze and drain the middle class, including its upper edges. Where else can they exercise, fund and practice their theories? The poor won't protest; they're not about to target themselves, so that leaves the always useful middle class.
When the elite ruling class stopped pretending, and the middle woke up to their useful, puppet status, the game was over. It's only been reinforced in the past 10 years, every single day.
Republicans let the left define them as the rich, greedy, capital class and never actually looked at their growing constituency, as the left was increasingly describing itself, not the republican party at all.
The right's values are now triggers for the left: family, faith, freedom, country, strength, respect, individual agency and a nation that allows them to thrive in dignity and purpose.
My how times have changed. Now we need to choose which direction we go. Right or Left? Yup, the right just might have a chance.
Vance has co sponsored bills 5 bills with Dems? Can someone name a Dem that has co sponsored 5 bills with Reps, recently? That sounds rather moderate to me, and a successful attempt at working across the aisle.
Pundits tend to separate Americans by college education, implying one group is more intelligent and sophisticated. Does anyone doubt a high school grad trucker, who begins his own business and molds it into a success over decades, might be more knowledgable, then a gender studies major, a few years out of college, employed by a non profit? The former must produce a service, Americans want and need. The latter's employment depends on the charity of the wealthy, far more than her personal productivity?
The superior earnings of many of the college educated, likely stem far more from public policy, than actual knowledge or usefulness. No one offshored the jobs of investment bankers, lawyers, journalists and nonprofits. Perhaps even more importantly , no one imported tens of millions of migrants with the similar skills, willing to work for far lower wages.
Dem open borders make far more sense, when Americans understand, many Dems see non college educated Americans, as interchangeable with the migrants hiking the Darien Pass or landing in Mexico from Asia or the Middle East. Many Dems view the migrants as superior, because of their assumed work ethic, and their acceptance of poor pay and working conditions.
Hence, Blue Sates and cities see nothing wrong with spending $80K a migrant, annually, while poor minority neighborhoods can't get a response to 911 calls and US vets, sleep on the street. For Dems one group is not more deserving of aid, than the other. Reps feel differently, and that should win them the election.
Well, every single bill Vance co-sponsored with a Democrat was co-sponsored by a Democrat who worked with a Republican. That's just a truth of logic. Vance does deserve some credit for being willing to reach across the aisle. But the reason there aren't more Democrats doing it is there are no other Republicans reaching across the Aisle. For Eight years, Obama tried to reach across the aisle, and the Republicans spit in his hand.
Ruy, you're one of the few libs I can stand. You are most often right. The shift among working class black and Hispanics, as tracked by Richard Baris, is amazing. Trump will EASILY get between 17 and 25% of the black vote and will push 50% of the Hispanic vote with most of that coming from the so-called "working class." (I hate that term, because I work my butt off but am a former academic---it's Marxist jargon). Nevertheless, you are correct that this IS the new GOP and will remain so for a long time. The neocon/Chamber of Commerce types have mostly moved to the other party.
Ruy - you've been preaching this for months, and it seems to have fallen on deaf ears. January 6th and insisting Trump is an existential threat to democracy just aren't top issues for millions of voters.
IMHO, the election will be decided by working class Hispanic voters. The question, or key contradiction, is whether they identify by ethnicity or by class. If the latter, Republicans win.
Of interest, the last time I was in Southern California, the man behind the counter at a convenience store was wearing a shirt that said, "Don't call me Hispanic, I'm Mexican. We have a proud heritage." Only one data point, but... I've also read that "Hispanics" have a higher rate of entrepreneurship than whites do. Also a plus for the GOP.
Imagine if Reagan had chosen Kemp as his running mate instead of G. H. W. Bush. Has Trump done the equivalent by choosing Vance?
Don’t put your money on candidate Kamala Harris to be the Dems big working-class bet.
Since you posted this, Tim Walz has appeared on the scene, and offered a new kind of democratic party that really does what the Republicans are pretending to do. And of course Vance is now showing himself to be a 24 carat loon, who is alienating everyone from cat owners to step parents. Tim Walz is what Vance pretends to be. If the party follows his lead, I think they'll be a lot more successful at this than Vance and Trump.
Pretty much a guest worker program. No criminals. Must have employment/medical insurance lined up. No government assistance (except education). No path to citizenship.
Would have to reform the whole asylum process, the whole thing is a joke right now.
Vance has been incredibly lucky, based on his start. From the Marines forward it has been nothing but positive. He won his Senate seat on the coattails of Governor DeWine. Now as a possible Vice-President, is this it, or just a stepping stone?
What you are describing is a combination of positions that actually did work for a prominent leader in the past. What they are doing is combining social welfare programs with Xenophobia and bigotry. Ordinary socialism and communism is international, but this party advertised themselves as National Socialists. They were quite successful in Germany in the 1930s.
It's hard to see the Republican Party as a pro-labor party, while disrupting hundreds of communities to round up and detail millions of immigrants, many who have been part of those communities for a decade or longer.
Can you see the Republican party as a pro-citizen labor party? This whole pretense that importing millions of uneducated laborers doesn't have a huge negative affect on lower income voters (pay, housing, benefits) is crazy.
Limiting the number of immigrants and securing the border is a very different objective than rounding up and deporting millions of people who have been in the U.S. for years without authorization. Trump supporters are going to be disappointed if they believe he is actually going to follow through on deportation. Republicans could have had a good border deal earlier this year but they wanted to complain about "uneducated laborers" instead.
How about just identifying who is in our country? Illegal immigrants can get identity cards and green cards, but CAN NEVER vote or apply for citizenship. That includes so-called Dreamers. Criminals are not eligible. People who chose not to apply for this program are subject to automatic deportation.
We have to get a handle on who is coming into this country.
Mandatory nationwide identification systems have been implemented in Argentina, Belgium, Colombia, Germany, Italy, Peru, and Spain. While the IDs vary by country, individuals are typically assigned a unique number, which can be used for a broad range of identification purposes. Personal data such as name, birth date, place of birth, gender, eye color, height, current address, photograph, and other information is often linked to this ID. Is that what you are proposing?